Futuro e commercializzazione della musica hardcore

Neural Damage

Messaggio da Neural Damage » 04/12/2009, 11:41

I've just seen the topic and i can say I'm very disappointed about the way of Hardcore especially with posts like these upper...

=>Don't worry people, i won't pollut this topic but just want to answer about the what it has been said upper... ;) ;) ;)

The hardcore world disgusted me day by day since few months because of VERY commercial way and childish and shocking behaviour from some producers...
Now, I understand the choice of Giangy and his departure because there was 2 very differents state of mind about music...

Today in hardcore, there is 3 or 4 artists only want to make evolute the music with original work than the rest who produce very TOO commercial tracks without innovation...It's the same thing with some artists who produced BOMBTRACKS 3 years ago and now, nothing exceptionnal than years 2000-2006.

Commercial way is the danger for this music and i think that's why a lot of people are angry about it... :roll:

Where is the time of "All the way up", "B.A.M.M.M", or "Thrillseeka"? THIS period was dedicated to hardcore because a lot of producer wanted to developp their own style but now, every track seem the same... :grr:

Darkcore is going to become more and more mainstream , the melodies we can hear are similar, we can find exactly the same kick for many producer,etc... :prr:

That's why I say only 3 or 4 producer want to make evolute the music and it's sad because I'm very curious to know how will be hardcore in 2015... :eh:



StordiTo

Messaggio da StordiTo » 04/12/2009, 13:19

:arrowu: qualcuno puo tradurlo?

Avatar utente
Alex b Hard
Messaggi: 5389
Iscritto il: 26/04/2009, 13:05
Località: CH
Contatta:

Messaggio da Alex b Hard » 04/12/2009, 14:01

Neural Damage ha scritto:I've just seen the topic and i can say I'm very disappointed about the way of Hardcore especially with posts like these upper...

=>Don't worry people, i won't pollut this topic but just want to answer about the what it has been said upper... ;) ;) ;)

The hardcore world disgusted me day by day since few months because of VERY commercial way and childish and shocking behaviour from some producers...
Now, I understand the choice of Giangy and his departure because there was 2 very differents state of mind about music...

Today in hardcore, there is 3 or 4 artists only want to make evolute the music with original work than the rest who produce very TOO commercial tracks without innovation...It's the same thing with some artists who produced BOMBTRACKS 3 years ago and now, nothing exceptionnal than years 2000-2006.

Commercial way is the danger for this music and i think that's why a lot of people are angry about it... :roll:

Where is the time of "All the way up", "B.A.M.M.M", or "Thrillseeka"? THIS period was dedicated to hardcore because a lot of producer wanted to developp their own style but now, every track seem the same... :grr:

Darkcore is going to become more and more mainstream , the melodies we can hear are similar, we can find exactly the same kick for many producer,etc... :prr:

That's why I say only 3 or 4 producer want to make evolute the music and it's sad because I'm very curious to know how will be hardcore in 2015... :eh:
;) ;) ;)
Traduzione:

"Ho visto il topic e posso dire che sono veramente deluso specialmente dai messaggi come quelli sopra.
Non preuccpatevi, non intendo rovinare il topic, ma voglio solamente rispondere a quello che è stato scritto sopra.
Il mondo hardcore mi ha sempre disgustato giorno dopo giorno già da qualche mese a causa del modo Veramente commerciale, infantile e del comportamento scioccante di alcuni produttori
Ora, capisco la scelta di Giangy e il suo allontamento per via che c'erano 2 differenti modi di pensarla sulla musica..

Oggi nell'hardcore, ci sono solo 3 o 4 artisti che vogliono far evolvere la musica grazie al lavoro originale e poi il resto che produce tracce troppo commerciali senza innovazione...è la stessa cosa con certi artisti che producevano delle tracce stupende 3 anni fa e adesso niente di eccezionale.

Il modo commerciale è pericoloso per questa musica e penso che è il motivo per cui molte persone sono arrabbiate.

Dove è finito il periodo di "All the way up", B.a.m.m.m" o "Thrillseeka"? QUESTO periodo è stato dedicato all'hardcore perchè molti produttori voleva sviluppare un loro tile personale, ma adesso ogni traccia ha lo stesso...

La Darkcore diventerà sempre di più sulla Mainstream, le melodie che sentiamo sono simili, possiamo trovare esammente la stessa cassa in molti produttori...

Ecco perchè dico che solo 3 o 4 produttori vogliono evolvere la musica, ed è triste perchè sono molto curioso di sapere come sarà l'hardcore nel 2015


Hope to have understood what you want to say, Greg. Traduzione: Spero di aver capito giusto quello che intendi Greg.

Ciaoo

StordiTo

Messaggio da StordiTo » 04/12/2009, 14:02

Grazie :asd:

Avatar utente
Alex b Hard
Messaggi: 5389
Iscritto il: 26/04/2009, 13:05
Località: CH
Contatta:

Messaggio da Alex b Hard » 04/12/2009, 14:13

Neural Damage ha scritto: PS: Google trans... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Aahahahah that's way you did it so fast :lol: :lol:

I was pushing the button "invia" when i saw you had just replyed :evil: :lol:

Neural Damage

Messaggio da Neural Damage » 04/12/2009, 15:53

Mouhahahah too fast for U Alex... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Nightmare

Messaggio da Nightmare » 04/12/2009, 16:08

Neural Damage ha scritto:
The hardcore world disgusted me day by day since few months because of VERY commercial way and childish and shocking behaviour from some producers...
Greg,what do you mean for "VERY commercial"? specially in a period like this, with the biggest musical crisis,we're living nowadays..

Today in hardcore, there is 3 or 4 artists only want to make evolute the music with original work than the rest who produce very TOO commercial tracks without innovation...
Sincerely, i don't wanna see "innovation" at every cost.. i explain: if one artist to be an "innovator" must produce shit, with strange sounds, strange kicks, as for example is becoming the new Amnesys style actually, sincerely i prefer the style of now... because the most important thing in this music, is make the people dance, and the people normally dance with "easier" sounds, that with too much "difficult" music..

Commercial way is the danger for this music and i think that's why a lot of people are angry about it... :roll:
always this word "commercial".... i really don't understand, why many people uses this word, without knowing, how much "commercial" hardcore, can be.... specially nowadays... :( Lady Gaga is commercial, Jonas Brothers are commercial, Tokio Hotel are commercial, Michael Jackson was commercial.. NOT Evil Activities, Endymion or The Viper...
because I'm very curious to know how will be hardcore in 2015...
there won't be any hardcore anymore in 2015...the end of the earth is set on 21 diecember 2012... :mrgreen:

Nikkita

Messaggio da Nikkita » 04/12/2009, 16:57

Marco, I disagree with you...

"connected with or engaged in or sponsored by or used in commerce or commercial enterprises"

Is the definition of commercial.

Take a look at the scene -- when the previews for some upcoming tracks are released, I'm sure you'll see what I mean...

Sometimes commercializing something isn't a bad thing -- but the truth is, what some artists do with hardcore is the same to what Avril Lavigne, Blink 182, and Fall Out Boy did to punk music. In a sense, they ruined what punk was all about -- now you can buy ripped jeans for hundreds of dollars, special "Anarchy" wrist bands and studded jewelry. They milked something for what it was worth -- that wasn't the worst part of it... the worst part was, they couldn't even get it right. They just decided to slap on a label to music to make people go "OH MAN I ALWAYS WANTED TO BE A REBEL!!!1" -- these same people who would listen to the Sex Pistols, The Distillers, The Misfits and etc and go "this isn't punk"...

Now, please remember what I say... and take a listen to some upcoming releases that should be posted as previews within the next months. I promise you, you probably won't even recognize it as hardcore since it could sound like some epic trance producer puked in to a sequencer and had someone master it, and then eventually shit out something they decided to call "hardcore".

Look at the size of the events that are held... look at the ticket prices charged for some of these events... in fact, look at how some artists are presented. To be honest, it is almost indistinguishable from any other commercialized genre of music. Look at the vendors making money from products...

So, don't say for a second that just because they aren't Lady Gaga, that they aren't commercial... Hardcore is the very definition of what "commercial" is, in it's infancy... and I don't say this in a bad way -- we all need to eat, we all need to pay our bills... but to deny that it is what it is and keep up with this illusion when we have labels pushing girls with a colourful story and lies to their primary consumer just to make more money from her body, when now artists also want to imitate some commercially successful secrets and maintan monopolies over an industry, and many other things... this is what commercial is. You live in it, you support it, you eat because of it. However, it doesn't mean everyone should blindly stand by and let their favourite thing be completely taken over and warped in to becoming the very monster they once stood up against.

reflecti

Messaggio da reflecti » 04/12/2009, 16:59

Neural Damage ha scritto:
Darkcore is going to become more and more mainstream , the melodies we can hear are similar, we can find exactly the same kick for many producer,etc... :prr:

Which labels are you referring at, Greg? :?: :p

Neural Damage

Messaggio da Neural Damage » 04/12/2009, 21:10

I don't want to shoot any label or artist but just look @ Nosferatu or Angerfist ( as exemple )...They began more and more mainstream and they're losing their very particular style , releases after releases...

For similarities, on Neophyte, I don't see any originalisation except for Tha Playah...Evil Activities or Neophyte always make same track style, with similar melodies or delirium...

But it's just few exemples among a lot...

;) ;) ;)

Avatar utente
Alex b Hard
Messaggi: 5389
Iscritto il: 26/04/2009, 13:05
Località: CH
Contatta:

Messaggio da Alex b Hard » 05/12/2009, 0:28

Greg, don't quote the last message, please ;) Thanks man

Nightmare

Messaggio da Nightmare » 05/12/2009, 12:35

in my opinion "commercial", the REAL definition of commercial, is everything who sells..

and, i'm sorry for you guys, but this music in this sense of "commercial", hasn't nothing..

Nikkita

Messaggio da Nikkita » 05/12/2009, 15:17

Nightmare ha scritto:in my opinion "commercial", the REAL definition of commercial, is everything who sells..

and, i'm sorry for you guys, but this music in this sense of "commercial", hasn't nothing..

That was the definition I posted, and the fact certain artists can take home more than 2000 euro per gig is proof enough of a self-perpetuating and commercial industry. ;)

Maybe a mod can split this topic somehow to a new one?

Nightmare

Messaggio da Nightmare » 05/12/2009, 16:14

Nikki, i don't mean, for bookings or parties, but only for copies sold... hardcore can't be commercial for that..

Avatar utente
saluzz
Real Isean handeater
Messaggi: 13844
Iscritto il: 23/04/2009, 14:57

Messaggio da saluzz » 05/12/2009, 17:15

I think I understand what greg means: the word "commercial" defined in quantity of bookings and performance... so because of that situation releases are commercial too...
i explain in a better way: nowadays producers earn much more in performances than selling releases, so many producers work to have commercial tracks for a large audience... they work to realize more commercial sounds than experimental sounds because the first ones help them to keep the commercial situation that is growing today (big hardcore festival associated to hardstyle and other hard styles in order to increase audience)

Neural Damage

Messaggio da Neural Damage » 05/12/2009, 18:02

:arrowu:

EXACTLY but there is more things with the same "COMMERCIAL" ( :arrowl: dedicated to Nightmare :8) :8) :8) ) way...

Nightmare

Messaggio da Nightmare » 05/12/2009, 19:36

saluzz ha scritto:I think I understand what greg means: the word "commercial" defined in quantity of bookings and performance... so because of that situation releases are commercial too...
i explain in a better way: nowadays producers earn much more in performances than selling releases, so many producers work to have commercial tracks for a large audience... they work to realize more commercial sounds than experimental sounds because the first ones help them to keep the commercial situation that is growing today (big hardcore festival associated to hardstyle and other hard styles in order to increase audience)
the dj and the producers always earned more with bookings and parties than with the records, and the copies sold.. the dj's have their bookings indipendently from the musical kind they produce.. for example Neophyte, The Stunned Guys and many others that from oldstyle to actual hardcore, always had many bookings in the past but also now.. it's not a problem of kind of music.. because as "commercial" as kind of music, hardcore has never been,isn't and won't ever be commercial.. maybe you can say with "easier sounds", but NEVER commercial, specially in this period of big musical crisis also for the pop/rock artists, and much more for electronic music, in general

Deterrent Man

Messaggio da Deterrent Man » 06/12/2009, 14:51

FUCK COMMERCIAL,FUCK THE MELODIES,This Is Not Hardcore! Back In Da Old School!!!!

Cane

Messaggio da Cane » 06/12/2009, 17:36

Neural Damage ha scritto:
The hardcore world disgusted me day by day since few months because of VERY commercial way and childish and shocking behaviour from some producers...

Commercial way is the danger for this music and i think that's why a lot of people are angry about it... :roll:
Nothing against you ;) This words are my same think from '98..
Boomtracks? Biggest part of artists falls after its boom but you shouldn't cite Thrillseeka who initiated the mass marketing of the scene please.

-soulripper-

Messaggio da -soulripper- » 06/12/2009, 19:09

For me REAL HARDCORE music was produced between 93 and 98 years. Then some others good things was produced, in a more commercial way, but until the year 2002-2003 the situation was accettable. After this period hardcore become more and more commercial, quickly as i can image. Ok, i can't say that all is come after 2003 is shit, i like some tracks (expecially sperimental hc like enzyme/enzyme x, cenobite, some traxtorm and third movement relases), but a little little few. Many people are wrong because they call the commercialization, "evolution" of the core. Yes, it's not false at all, but for me is a few evolution between a large and audible commercialization of the style.
Nikkita ha scritto:... Hardcore is the very definition of what "commercial" is, in it's infancy... and I don't say this in a bad way -- we all need to eat, we all need to pay our bills...
The sadly truth. And in some cases, the hunger of money and fame help this process to go on and on.
Anyway, for me hardcore will be always things like that :mad: :

(sorry for the spam)

HASTE

Messaggio da HASTE » 06/12/2009, 19:13

Deterrent Man ha scritto:FUCK COMMERCIAL,FUCK THE MELODIES,This Is Not Hardcore! Back In Da Old School!!!!


:doh:

Nightmare

Messaggio da Nightmare » 06/12/2009, 21:14

Deterrent Man ha scritto:FUCK COMMERCIAL,FUCK THE MELODIES,This Is Not Hardcore! Back In Da Old School!!!!
Questa perla di saggezza, ci mancava..

however, to return in topic,after this bullshit, nowadays hardcore is surely more musical, than in years like 95-96-97.. and you can see everybody that now for making hardcore, is necessary to know something about music, about the notes, about the composition of a track..years ago, like the video that Soulripper posted, everybody could do "music" like that.. 4 sounds: a kick,a snare,a hi-hat and a "synth" with a very childish "melody"... maybe you can call it "harder", maybe for the bpm velocity, maybe for the very crappy sounds, but it was extremely empty of sounds... to say the truth, also if i play this music from 94, i enjoy myself playing 200 times more hardcore of now when i play.. i like to "play" with the distorsions of the kicks, i like to make tricks with that... in the past, you always had the same straight kick, without distortions, without tricks, without anything, only a straight 4/4 kick with some snare, and some hi-hat.. stop..

then, who can say what it's "real hardcore" and what it's not? in my opinion, hardcore nowadays is passing one of its best period, we are in a very high standard of productions from many labels..and specially in 2009 there have been really great productions,every year more... then hardcore in my opinion, shouldn't be only kick,rumours and noise.. for me hardcore is also break,atmospheres,melody, break... that's the hardcore i like..maybe because i also love trance music, i like its melodies, i like the atmosphere of the breaks, and much more.. and this kind of hardcore, from 3-4 years, it's the best i ever liked and played.. years ago, i didn't enjoy so much playing this music, specially from 95 to 98..

Cristian AoF

Messaggio da Cristian AoF » 06/12/2009, 21:42

Commercial...we can talk hours without having an answer.
You can blame us for making "melodic" hardcore, but we all do also other kind of hardcore. I made Artwork as I made a lot of Meccano twins tracks. It's just senseless talking to me.
Now a lot of people that used to listen to hardcore from 96 to 2000 complain about how "commercial" the scene is. In that years we got I luv you more, a lot of happy hardcore and a lot of REALLY commercial music, the big hardcore tracks were just ripping from pop music, pushed in the radio and all the main channels. THAT was commercial. And now that producers just can't do hardcore anymore cause it's too complex and technical. :D
And guys, I'm producing from more than 10 years now, I saw this discussion every year. First people said that hardcore from 2000 was commercial, then the same people said "no, hardcore from 2003 was commercial!"... In 3 years people will say "hardcore from 2003 was the real one, after 2005 was commercial" and so on :D

So, everybody that complain: go back in studio and show everybody what real hardcore is ;)

Abyss

Messaggio da Abyss » 06/12/2009, 21:49

:arrowu:

:clap:

Nightmare

Messaggio da Nightmare » 06/12/2009, 22:04

Cristian AoF ha scritto: In that years we got I luv you more, a lot of happy hardcore and a lot of REALLY commercial music,
I agree 100%, if we wanna talk about real commercial in the hardcore scene. let's talk about happy hardcore, and happy hardcore was produced in years like 95-96 and more.. that was commercial, and the hardcore record that sold more copies ever, it was "I wanna be a hippy" from Technohead, then many old shit from Paul Elstak,Party Animals,Charlie Lownoise & Menthal Theo was really commercial in the real sense of the word, without talking about some shitty and childish acts and tracks like Hakkuhbar, the compilations Hakkeh en Zagen and many other shit like that.. that was killing the hardcore scene in Holland in years like 97 and 98..

-soulripper-

Messaggio da -soulripper- » 06/12/2009, 22:30

Nightmare ha scritto: 4 sounds: a kick,a snare,a hi-hat and a "synth" with a very childish "melody"... maybe you can call it "harder", maybe for the bpm velocity, maybe for the very crappy sounds, but it was extremely empty of sounds...
I like raw stuffs, and i know that is a simple way to do music. I studied music and composition for five years at school, so i know how it's simple to do something like that. In the past, and now, when i want to hear some more melodic, or some more complex i used to listen to trance music, electro alternative, classical symphonic or metal music, of course not hardcore. Harcore for me is always a way to hear something simple, energic and hard that make me move.
Nowadays hc is more full of sounds, breaks, so it's more listenable too, but for dancing i prefer a lot old stuffs.
And if u put care to what i write in my post, i write that i like also some new stuffs, expecially the sperimental "face" of hardcore ;)

Nightmare

Messaggio da Nightmare » 06/12/2009, 22:57

-soulripper- ha scritto:
when i want to hear some more melodic, or some more complex i used to listen to trance music, electro alternative, classical symphonic or metal music, of course not hardcore. Harcore for me is always a way to hear something simple, energic and hard that make me move.
mmm... actually also hardcore/mainstream of now is very complex and full of work behind.. see for example, the remix of Ophidian of Forgotten moments.. and many productions of him and other producers specially in the last year...

yes i saw that you wrote that you also like things of now, in your post ;)

-soulripper-

Messaggio da -soulripper- » 06/12/2009, 23:43

Yep, i know, i like so much the violins part, for example that introducing "forgotten moments rmx".
So, now we are all italian people now here and we still talking in english :lol:
Vorrei solo fare una piccola puntualizzazione sull'argomento commercializzazione, usando semplici esempi. I green day, che penso conoscete tutti, fecero sold out con l'album "dookie", dove era contenuta "basket case". Quest'ultima è una canzone composta con 4 accordi in croce, una ritmica sostenuta, ed eseguita con una buona dose di energia. Chiunque vada ad un corso di chitarra, al massimo dopo 3 mesi di lezione sarebbe in grado di eseguire più o meno bene una cosa simile. Eppure resta un brano storico, un colpo di genio che ha costruito con pochi elementi una melodia orecchiabilissima che si canticchia dopo il primo ascolto, e che ti rimane in testa. Ora con gli anni la band è maturata, musicalmente le canzoni hanno una struttura più complessa, più piena di sonorità e melodie. Eppure l'energia che trasmettevano ai fan durante il periodo dookie ed anni successivi, non son più stati in grado di darla.
A mio parere, è dovere dell'artista non fermarsi agli albori, e dimostrare la sua crescita musicale. Però spesso ciò va a fondersi con delle sonorità ricercate, che fanno allontanare troppo l'artista da quello che era il suo concept di base. Il tutto poi deve venir reso "commerciabile", cioè un disco che musicalmente sia come audio engineering che come stile sia al passo con i tempi (esempio ultimamente va molto di moda il sound e look stile "emo", e le produzioni devono avere un suono "cristallino" ed "avvolgente"). Quindi a questo punto sicuramente si ampieranno le possibilità di conquistare un nuovo pubblico, allargando ed adattando gli orizzonti musicali. Ma nello stesso tempo, le vecchie guardie avranno qualche perplessità, ed anche se continueranno a seguire, lo faranno con meno entusiasmo.
Ci vuole una giusta dose per non interrompere quella che è l'evoluzione del suono, andando avanti e producendo materiale nuovo, stando attenti però a non buttare via quelle che sono le basi, ma piuttosto cercare di integrare. E non è affatto facile. Alcuni artisti hardcore ce la stanno facendo, altri invece purtroppo, a mio parere si stanno spingendo verso una direzione che li porta lontani da quello che questa musica deve trasmettere. Ammetto anche che forse appunto, essendo un appassionato di musica, e nel mio piccolo un musicista, forse ho qualche pretesa in più rispetto a tanta gente che viene a ballare. Spero solo, come già stato detto, che non ritorni un periodo analogo a quello del 96-98, dove moltissimi ed ottimi lavori HARDCORE rimasero "sotto terra" (e tutt'oggi ancora, per tanta gente che si dice "appassionata di old" rimangono sconosciuti, perchè difficili da reperire) a discapito della scena commerciale che era nata.

Deterrent Man

Messaggio da Deterrent Man » 07/12/2009, 2:22

Per ME l'Hardcore è finita nel 2004 e giusto qualcosa del 2006 mi piace ancora,ma dopo pochissimo o niente, poi Nightmare l'ho capito che a te piacciono trax melodiche,sdolcinate,etc..,al contrario di me,quindi quella cosa che ho scritto sopra non è una "bullshit" perchè io la penso così...
ALLES NAAR DE KLOTE ;)
P.s: e cmq rispetto ogni artista che fà "Hardcore" adesso,perchè tecnicamente sono da paura e le casse fatte bene le apprezzo sempre :D
Ultima modifica di Deterrent Man il 07/12/2009, 2:41, modificato 2 volte in totale.

Nightmare

Messaggio da Nightmare » 07/12/2009, 11:54

Deterrent Man ha scritto: P.s: e cmq rispetto ogni artista che fà "Hardcore" adesso,
beh, la frase che hai scritto prima, non mi sembrava assolutamente un segno di rispetto, verso chi fa hardcore oggi...

poi mi spieghi cosa centra la frase ALLES NAAR DE KLOTE, in questo contesto?

Rispondi

Torna a “Generi e stili”